the following is a transcript of this week’s (august 23, 2009) ‘weekend edition‘ on arutz sheva’s israel national radio. host tamar yonah interviews copper scroll project director jim barfield. you can download an mp4 version of the interview to listen along while you read the transcript here.
i shall comment further on this matter tomorrow. for now, here’s what jim barfield told tamar yonah.
=== BEGIN TRANSCRIPT ===
0:05 [Tamar Yonah]: Well can you imagine what would happen if in this secular new world order-type world that we live in, a world where we’re supposed to be so enlightened and religion is old hat and old fashioned and primitive, what would happen if, just if, the Bible was proven to be true? What would happen if the Ark of the Covenant and treasures from the First and Second temple were discovered? Well, we have with us joining us now, Jim Barfield, and Jim is the Director of the Copper Scroll Project. And you can go to his website while we’re doing this interview and check it out, it’s called, it’s at www dot copper hyphen scroll hyphen project dot com. Copper Scroll Project with a hyphen in between each word. Copper Scroll Pa-, Project dot com. And you can go there and look at some of the, um, things that he’s done so far in trying to do an archaeological dig, to try to find th-, the treasures that the Copper Scroll of the Dead Sea Scrolls is telling everybody maybe where these treasures are. Here to tell us more about that we have again joining us Jim Barfield. Hi there, Jim.
1:22 [Jim Barfield]: Good morning, Tamar. Good afternoon for you guys.
1:25 [Yonah]: Good- good afternoon t-, or good morning to you I should say. You’re out, uh, in the southwest United States where you reside, you are… describe yourself as I know you personally as a, as a Noahide, someone who believes in the Torah and the authenticity of it, and you believe, as, uh, your profession was before – you were a detective, uh, you were able to, uh, find out how, you- you were a detective actually for the fire department, you would find out how fires were started, if it was started purposely or not, you knew how to look at a situation, how to break it down, what questions to ask, where to look, and you’ve done that with your religious beliefs as well, and you have looked at the Copper Scroll and you think you might know where the treasures of the Temple are. First, before we go into your story, describe to our listeners what exactly the Copper Scroll is, and again, www copper dash scroll dash project dot com. Go ahead.
2:22 [Barfield]: “Well, with, first of all [coughs], excuse me, I’m not, I’m not a Noahide, I’m just a, uh, gentleman, uh, I keep Torah as best I can and I’m learnin’ from that direction, but what the Copper Scroll is, the Copper Scroll is a, literally, a copper document that was, uh, that is about seven feet long, about a foot wide, and it’s it literally made out of copper. The thing lists, uh, probably something around sixty different hoards of gold, silver, gems, but, uh, the gold and the gems, Tamar, they’re not, they’re not what’s important. You’ve, you have said what’s most important. The most important thing is that these, there are, there’s a potential that vessels from the Tabernacle, possibly from the Temple, uh, there are other religious items, uh, directly connected apparently with the, uh, with the Temple itself and with the, uh, nation of Israel. Those are the things that are the most valuable and those are the things that we are hoping to find. But, uh, it, it appears that the scroll, uh, was, uh written sometime around the time of Jeremiah.”
3:33 [Yonah]: And tell us this, just the quick background on how the scroll was discovered.
3:39 [Barfield]: The scroll was, uh, it was fou-, discovered actually in 1952. It was one of the only, uh, Dead Sea Scrolls that was found, uh, by a legitimate, uh, sanctioned, uh, archaeological dig or search through the caves at the, in the area of Qumran. Those, uh, ehh, the, the scroll, a-again…, it uh… the main thing about the scroll is, is what eh, the people need to understand is, these, these items are of such important value to the nation of Israel, that uh, they, they hold… a, a really important, uh… they’re just an really important religious aspects that are gonna be tied with this, but, uh, they, it was found in 1952, and again it’s the only one that was one found, eh, by a legitimate research from with archaeologists.
4:33 [Yonah]: Alright, and you, um, your background is you’re, you are somebody who questions things, and wants to understand and then come to a conclusion. So, I kinda gave a background of what you did, but, but give us your background in your own words, and how did you figure out, uh, what you think is the truth to the, the, uh, Copper Scroll – the secret that it holds there – that has been, uh, eluding scholars for, f- uh, ab- ’bout 57 years now.
5:01 [Barfield]: Eh, well, th-the… my background, I am not an archaeologist, I want people to understand that very clearly. I’m not an archaeologist. I’m not a historian. I’m simply, a, uh, gentleman from Oklahoma that has figured out the Copper Scroll. Uh, my background as an investigator, I won Oklahoma “Investigator of the Year,” I won “International Investigator of the Year,” so I’m pretty good at what I do as far as investigations go. But, uh, to be very honest with ya, Tamar, it’s, there’s more to it than that. The, uh, the Copper Scroll is not something that someone can come in and just figure out, uh… i- in the length of time it took me to figure it out was just incredible. It was amazing how soon and how quickly I figured this thing out, so, sometimes, and I’m, I’m gonna be real honest with ya, I’m gonna give ya the non-political, uh, answer to this, or a, the politically incorrect answer: I believe at times that the Father allowed me to see these things and, and the only way we’re ever gonna know whether that’s true or not, is if the Israeli government continues with an archaeological dig that we’ve started in April, and let’s see if these items are there… ah, eh… So my background, I’m not an archaeologist, I’m not, ahh, I’m not trained in this field, but I am good at investigation and that’s what I did is I applied investigative techniques to look at the Copper Scroll to determine whether or not, ehem, I could figure this thing out. And with the, within just a short period of time, I actually, eh, I absolutely believe that I did and everyone that has seen my research, believes that I have figured it out as well. There’s been guys – rabbis, uh, even ehh, some, uh, very important people in the I… in, uh, Israeli Antiquities Authority and I’m gonna refer to them as the I.A.A., they have seen it and they trusted my research enough that they actually have started looking at the site where I believe that these items are at.
7:00 [Yonah]: All right. You’re all the way in Oklahoma, and… you are retired now, as you said, correct?
7:06 [Barfield]: Yes, I am retired.
7:07 [Yonah]: And uh, you, so, how did you do- how did you do this? Did you have… you didn’t have the Copper Scroll in front of you, so how were you able to look at the Copper Scroll – the writings there – and figure out what the code was there that, that makes you think that you have discovered where these treasures lie?
7:22 [Barfield]: Initially, I utilized a, uh, translation by a gentleman by the name of Martinez. Uh… he’s um, he is qualified to do translations, I am not. I’m not qualified to do the translation for… And I used the first five of his translation to actually determine where these items are located at. Eh, at first, ’cause I began, I was, I looked at it and I thought, ehh, as I found the first one, the second one, the third one, I thought this is far too easy, it, it’s, this can’t possibly be, because it, after all these years, it would, I would think that the archaeologists or the historians, whoever has looked at this document would have figured this out, but it’s so simple. Sometimes I think that they have overlooked the simple things and, and tried to make it far more complicated than what it is. The, the scroll appears, eh it, to those that are trying to translate it, it appears like these items are scattered all over Israel, and, Tamar, they’re just not. They’re actually located in one location.
8:27 [Yonah]: And can you tell us where that location is?
8:29 [Barfield]: I’d be, honestly, I’m reluctant, but I’m going to. Ah…yer geh, yours is the first program that, uh, I’ve actually decided to release this information. All of the items are located in one location, and all of the, l- locations described on the Copper Scroll except for about four of them, which are so rotted away ya, you can’t tell where they’re at, uh, or it’s difficult to determine where they’re at, all of the descriptions on the Copper Scroll match a location, uh, which is actually a national park for you guys, is in Qumran near the Dead Sea.
9:04 [Yonah]: OK, so everybody listening, don’t get your shovels out and go running over there, because you can’t go dig on a property you don’t own, and uh, this is uh, anyway, this section is marked out for archaeologists, uh, right now, legally, i understand, and uh, they are the only ones who are allowed to dig there. So, you came to Israel, Jim, uh, again we’re speaking with Jim Barfield, he’s the director of the Copper Scroll Project, you can go to his website and see what he’s talking about at www dot copper dash scroll dash project dot com, copper scroll project with a hyphen in between each word dot com. Uh, the copper scrolls you believe have, uh, in it, a hidden secret as to where, uh, the treasures from the Temple are, gold, uh, the, the temple utensils, including, you believe, the Ark of the Covenant.
9:55 [Barfield]: It’s very possible. The, uh, the writing on the Copper Scroll matches that of Second Maccabees, uh, I believe second chapter of Second Maccabees, and it gives the same description that is actually on the la- the last location of the Copper Scroll. Now, eh, understand this, here’s, here’s one of the ways that I did this. I utilized the first five locations, and they are very easily identified on the Copper Scroll at Qumran. Those five locations match up so incredibly well, it’s just… after the first, I- I show this to whoever – doesn’t matter – after I show them my research, they look at that, they just slap their foreheads and say, “Oh my gosh, this is so simple,” and it really is. But then when you look at the last five locations on the Copper Scroll, they do something very interesting. There were four men that wrote on the Copper Scroll. You can see the handwriting. You can see changes in the handwriting where the next guy takes over and starts. The last five actually line up in a perfectly straight line ascending uphill. And they, it appears that whoever wrote this was telling whoever figured it out in the, vastly diff- distant future, if you can just find these first, these last five, they will point you to the most important location of all, that’s the cave. Now the cave…
11:15 [Yonah]: That’s what it says in there? That’s what it says in there? That’s what you read, when you, when you read it?
11:20 [Barfield]: [Laughs.] No, no no no. It doesn’t say, “If you do this…’
11:23 [Yonah]: Uh huh.
11:24 [Barfield]: It literally, you, you have to identify the locations, which is relatively simple once you figure out how to understand the Copper Scroll. They, this, the i- the locations line up in a perfectly straight line. Now here’s what I did: I identified the first, second, third, and fourth, and I, I took a, uh, satellite map, took a nee-, took a pin, a needle and I poked holes in this satellite map for each one of them. And then I drew a line through each one and they lined up in uh, like I said in a perfectly straight line, and they crossed over a location that I had already identified utilizing only the description on the Copper Scroll. Lori and I, my wife and, uh, and I, went to the location, uh, testing to make sure that all the information that I was looking at was correct, and the description led me to a point very near Qumran, and there eh, was a, it, and you can see a place that very much looks like the opening of a, uh, where a cave used to be. Of course remember now, it’s been buried. Not only does it, it’s described that way in Second Maccabees, but it’s also described that way on the Copper Scroll. It [coughs] is an entrance that is in buried, so that’s ho-, that’s how I know this. That all of those in between, now remember there’s approximately sixty locations, there’s, uh, fifty more that can be easily identified within the building complex of Qumran.
12:52 [Yonah]: Hmm. All right, so, uh, I have interviewed before, a few years back, someone very famous as well, his name is Vendyl Jones, he’s the head of the Noahide movement, he’s an archaeologist at- uh, a well-known archaeologist, and he said on this show that he was going to be the one to find the Ark of the Covenant. He was sure he would find it within a year. Uh, a year’s gone by. Another year’s gone by, and, uh, nothing doing there. Um, are you involved at all, uh, with Vendyl Jones and his project?
13:21 [Barfield]: No, I, eh, no I’m not. Uh, Vendyl, Vendyl and I have talked about my research and he very much likes my research, but, he is not at all associated with the Copper Scroll Project. He wa-, he and his wife invited, uh, me and my family to his home, ehem, spent the weekend with him, had a great time – they’re wonderful people – but he is a, he’s not involved and I’m not involved in his research either. His, his descriptions or determinations where these items are at are very different from mine.
13:51 [Yonah]: Didn’t he think it was in approximately the same place as, uh, where you’re looking as well though?
13:56 [Barfield]: Yes, he, uh, his location, he calls it the Cave of the Column, is about, uh, I’m gonna say about a half mile away from, uh, the Qumran complex, the actual buildings of Qumran.
14:06 [Yonah]: Mm hmm. And some of the reasons that they believe that this could be at Qumran is because weren’t there underneath the Temple secret tunnel passageways that led out from Jerusalem to that area and that’s where, when the Romans came in and were, er, I shouldn’t say the Romans, the Babylonians, came in, uh, to take over Israel, that the quickly took away the Ark and some of the treasures and they’ve took them possibly through these tunnels and hid them away?
14:33 [Barfield]: That’s possible, uh…, it, I’d, I’d think it’d be, I think it’d be incredibly difficult to do that, carrying such an important holy artifact, through a caves, but, uhh, eeh, from what I understand that, that is possible, and for goodness sakes you know as well as I do, Israel has got more caves than, uh, than rocks practically, and they got plenty of rocks.
14:53 [Yonah]: Mmm. So, so tell us about your research and where, and, uh, and where you are now. Now, you’ve already gotten, uh, the permission, and, and, uh, f- from the Israeli government to work with Israeli archaeologists who thought you may have the key, that’s why they are interested in it, they’ve looked at it, these are professionals, and they think it has some merit to it and that’s why they have let you come here and start digging with an Israeli archaeologist, to see if you can find something. So tell us where that’s going right now. So the s-, I just wanna, the-, the-, the point I’m making here is that the Israeli government has seen your work and they are interested enough in it that they believe in it enough that it might be true that they are cont-, uh, letting permission of, uh, a permit to go there and dig for it. So tell us how far you’ve gotten so far.
15:39 [Barfield]: Yes, uh, in my, what I, what I would like everybody to understand is that they, they went out of their way, and I deeply respect, uh, the guys at the I.A.A., that have, that have, uh, taken the time to go check and see if my research is, is correct. The only problem is this, Tamar: when we dug at the locations, uh, the archaeologist was actually, an, uh, a member of the I.A.A. staff, we only went a fraction, a ridiculously shallow level to test to see if the items are actually still there. Had we gone deeper, who knows what would happen. I can tell you this: I’ve, I’ve broken the code on the Copper Scroll, but I cannot tell you that the, those items are still there. Uh, in, in, the I.A.A. saw my research, and they too saw the merit, uh, that the possibility that I broke the ca- code was, uh, relatively high. So, they actually went out and, uh, they obtained the permits, of course, they own the property so for goodness sakes they can do pretty much what they want, but they got the proper permits and they were in charge. All I did was provided the information and the research that show them where we should dig and, eh, how deep we should go, but they, they stopped, like I said, Tamar, at a ridiculously shallow level, otherwise I think we could have possibly found something.
16:59 [Yonah]: So how does that make you feel? Do you think that the Israeli government is worried and maybe doesn’t want to find anything because isn’t this land, uh, land that, uh, the international community wants to see go to-, towards a Palestinian state, and maybe the Israeli government is worried that the, uh, Musli-, Muslim states, this future possible Muslim state would get their hands on it and perhaps destroy it like they destroyed artifacts on the Temple Mount?
17:24 [Barfield]: You know what, that’d be- what I won’t do is I, I won’t try to second guess why that we stopped at that shallow level, and, eh, I can’t speculate on what they’re thinkin’, but I can tell you this: that, if indeed these items are there, and because they, the, uh, the research is so compelling, I think – I know that we need to go in there and test, and a test would be relatively simple. Let’s go test. Let’s see if these items are there, and then we will know, and, it-, because if, if in fact some kind of a ridiculous two state solution were to come about, it would, it’s bad enough to be givin’ away the land of Israel, but for goodness sakes, let’s don’t give away the treasures that belong to Israel as well, that’s, that would be, ehh, tha-, it’s just-, nothing that could be worse. Ahh, well, ya there is, but doggonnit, let’s try a test and see if these things are there and let’s get ‘em secured and back into the hands of the Israelis. And, here’s, here’s my thoughts: the government of Israel is, is not qualified, uhhhh, they’re not qualified to handle these items, by Torah, by, by Scripture, that they must be handled by men that are priests. They must, these men, these things must be handled by people that are qualified, and the Torah gives you the, the information on how these things should be handled. So, there’s, there’s organizations already established in Israel that I feel should be the ones that, uh, actually get control these items if, in fact, they are found. Uhh, you know as well as I do that, uh, there are some, uh, well-established organizations that are trained and are training to handle these items so, eh, that’s one thing I wanted to make sure to say today.
19:06 [Yonah]: Like the Temple Institute? Like the Temple Institute?
19:10 [Barfield]: Exactly, like the Temple Institute.
19:11 [Yonah]: OK, when you talk about priests, you’re talking about Jewish priests, like the cohanim, the, the cohens?
19:15 [Barfield]: The cohanim, yes.
19:16 [Yonah]: OK.
19:16 [Barfield]: Only the cohanim, only the ones that are qualified by the Torah.
19:19 [Yonah]: I hear. All right. We only have about two minutes left in the in the interview and I have another couple of questions so I’m going to try and keep this brief. So, wh-, where does the work stand now? How are you gonna cont-, are you gonna continue looking? I mean they dug a little bit and then you’re back in Oklahoma now, and what’s going on? Is this gonna continue or is it just gonna sit there?
19:34 [Barfield]: Ya, mayb-, [gasp] I had to leave Israel, other way-, otherwise I would have stayed. I had some, there was some storms here in Oklahoma dest-, that destroyed practically my garage I had to get home to repair it. But I’m hopin’ that the Israelis that there are working with me – the guys at the I.A.A. – will continue to work with me, and, eh, try to get these things out, and, it’s, it’s not a re-, for me, it’s not a religious, however it is a religious im-, regi-, religiously important, it’s important to get these things out of the ground, so I’m hopin’ that they will, will contact me again and will follow through with the archaeological dig that’s already started. If they’ve gone to that much trouble to begin to search and look, let’s finish this thing. And that’s, that’s one of the things that, uh, I had hoped to get out to your audience, the Israelis, is, doggonnit, we’ve started, let’s finish this thing.
20:21 [Yonah]: All right. And when, the reason that you’re coming on this show and talking about this now is because you don’t really care about being a treasure hunter or getting any profit if any gold and silver and, and artifacts and things that can make someone a millionaire if they found it can make them, you just want the Ark found, you want the truth uncovered, and you want it to go to the proper hands of the Jewish people, the cohanim and, and the Temple Institute, and other places like that. Is that correct?
20:45 [Barfield]: You bet. I… Tamar, I got a, I got a wonderful family. We keep Shabbat. I want to continue to do that, and eh, I… honestly, when this is over with, I’m gonna sit back and, and get back to my regular research, and enjoy my life. Eh, it’s, it’s not about money. For goodness sakes, who cares about the gold and silver, but those items that belong to the Temple or the Tabernacle, those are what’s important. Those would be such a blessing to all of us, not just to Israel, to everyone that, uh, that believes in the Scriptures, it would be a blessing for all of us and that’s my goal. Simply that.
21:19 [Yonah]: And for those who don’t. ‘Cause they might start believing in it, right?
21:23 [Barfield]: There ya go. That would, that would be a blessing as well.
21:24 [Yonah]: One last question, and we have to keep this brief; we only have about, uh, sixty seconds left. Uh, what are we talking about when you talk about gold and silver, what, what amount are we talking about here?
21:35 [Barfield]: Uh, the, the precious metals, probably somewhere around three billion dollars in gold and silver. The gems, honestly…
21:39 [Yonah]: Three billion dollars in gold and silver hidden?
21:42 [Barfield]: Three, Three billion. Yeah, An-, and, but the gol-, uh, the gems I think, Tamar, would dwarf that. I think the gems would be worth far more than that.
21:51 [Yonah]: The gems.
21:52 [Barfield]: Yeah.
21: 53 [Yonah]: Wow! Wow! This is amazing stuff. All right, so, uh, so, next, next step. You have thirty seconds. Next step. So what’s the next step now?
22:03 [Barfield]: Next step? Uh, we, we got, uh, some other people that are, that are wanting to interview me to, because they found out about this and they realize the potential. Ah, I’m trying to get the information out to Israel and I’m hopin’ the Israeli government, I’m gonna try to contact them again, uh, and see if they will follow through with this archaeological dig or excavation, and let’s check to see if those things still remain at, at the site that I’m talkin’ about.
21:28 [Yonah]: Ah, Jim Barfield, ah, that would be great if we found this stuff. Jim Barfield is the Director of the Copper Scroll Project, www dot copper, and then a hyphen, scroll, another hyphen, project dot com. Go and look up what he’s doing and let’s hope that, uh, we find, uh, these treasures and the holy Ark. That would be fantastic. The Messiach – the Messiah – would come huh? Everybody would realize that the Bible’s true and turn, turn their ways to the good. Thanks for being with us.
22:52 [Barfield]: You’re very welcome. Thank you Tamar.
22:53 [Yonah]: Amazing story. We wish you luck.
22:55 [Barfield]: Thank you.
=== END TRANSCRIPT ===
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